Topic: Lyrics relations

[blackrose]

You know I've noticed something about most European metal bands. Especially symphonic metal. The lyrics are so impersonal. A lot of times they just repeat the same key words "full moon rise" "death" "die" "sun" "moon" "odin". Everything is about some impersonal story about the gods or vikings or some abstract occult concept. A lot of times the lyrics aren't even coherent and don't make sense in the context of a song (one minute singing about one thing, the next minute about something else, incoherent sentences etc.) Everything is made for the effect of the sound. I guess some lyrics like this aren't bad and can be interesting but after a while you just get tired of them. It seems so fake.

 I noticed also they throw in the same things to the point that it becomes cliche'. Like just randomly throw in a male choir, or a female singing, or some violens there, a worn out heavy metal riff. Even though the music sounds good, its not from the heart. Its just doing whatever is popular. yes a heavy metal riff can be great in a song as well as a choir or a violen or female singing, but when you are doing it just for profit and fame, when you don't really "feel" the music the quality is less. Because the listener will not feel it either. Only the beat and rythem will be there but not the emotion.

 I guess Therion stands out in that their music is pretty genuine. They actually write songs, and make music that they like. Rather than throwing in parts because a producer said it would be popular or because they think it will sell more albums (which in the long run I think sells less albums when you are no longer inspired but instead mechanically turning out music). But even Theiron, the lyrics are hard to connect with. What about the pain you feel or the happiness you feel? The experiences in your own life. How those gods or mythologies may relate to you personally. It seems like the bands are afraid to open up their true selves or something, so they must make something neutral and impersonal. Or maybe they just think lyrics about vikings are more interesting than true emotions that people go through in life or experiences.

 I found all the lyrics about gods and vikings and pale moon light and beauties in black and dark enchantresses to be pretty interesting at one time. But now it seems like all the new music coming out has the same lyric themes as the old stuff. It becomes less and less poetic. More and more cliche'

Let me give you an example. Johnny Cash when he did the song "hurt". Technically the song is crap. His voice isn't very good. His playing isn't too good. But the song was a huge hit and I like it. Why? Because you could feel the pain in his voice. He really felt the song. Even the plucking of the guitar seemed to somehow drip with his feelings. And in a large way, to me music is about feeling. Though I guess some symphonies and such to me is more about an intellectual feeling which I guess is more like Therion.

 But I mean does anyone else feel somehow tired of the fakeness of the music industry and the same old regurgitated music and lyrics.

[LakeOfTearz]

You could maybe refresh your music collection 

[Wicket]

Whilst I don't disagree entirely, I feel you should use some more examples; Johnny Cash never used heavy metal riffs to be popular! 

A lot of Therion's lyrics are based on personal experiences ofd Thomas Karlsson and I personally think that they fit more with the musical style than a song about "my girlfriend leaft me". Actually, I really hate songs about that kind of thing. It's much more cliched than any other type of lyric.   

[Thor]

There's lot of bands singing with emotions - Anathema, Green Carnation, Evergrey, Katatonia... I mean their feelings in music, lyrics, and voice... So, you can choose and match the music to your feelings... If you don't see anything interesting in Therion lyrics, just focus on the music itself and the effect that choirs and vocals cause being connected together with music...
Personally I disagree that Therion lyrics are... insipid or vapid. Somewhere (at this forum or at the Polish one) I saw a long and very interesting discussion about the pictures in mind that people can see while listening to Therion - it concerned not only music, but also lyrics! I also find something for myself in Therion lyrics (concerning esoterical experiences or general feeling they causes inside of me) - try to look at them with eyes open a little bit wider. I would say that if Chris had continued writing lyrics, after some time they would have become the same and a little bit "stiff" - I think it's good that Thomas "took the floor"; propably he has more knowledge about occultism, mythologies, strange phenomenas and esoteric. So, let Chris write music and lead the ship, and let Thomas write lyrics I think the symbiosis of their work is perfect.
If you want to hear something about personal emotions, just change mp3s or CD and listen to another bands Life is so easy sometimes

[Symphoniker]

Yeah i agree with Thor..Therion has such things in their lyrics and music, That although they are not so personasl, they can produce a lot of feelings.

For example, I love the feeling Wondrous world of Punt gives me..it such a melancholic song..It's so beautiful..

If you want a symphnic band with lyrics that talk about feelings , personal experiences or anything like it..I think Nightwish is the choice..that's once of the things about that band..

By The Way..Hurt is a really great song interpreted by JC...but i prefer the original with NIN, that is another band who wirtes about feelings and emotions..

[Majestic Beast]

I think that what makes me fascinated by Therion's lyrics are the mistery involved, and this mixed with the melodies that only Therion can do is something unique for me...If I would know everything about the lyrics I don't think they would have the same magic than before...and other thing is that I do not read, so I end up catching the lyrics and fantasizing a lot, just like in a book...I enjoy it so much! Therion is a great journey to me.

It depends on the moment too, sometimes you want to listen something more personal, then you search for the bands that fit these moments, there's a world of them thereabout. When you want to escape from the 'cruel reality', there's a lot of bands that might help you to forget everything.

And you don't necessarily need to think about lyrics, you can just try to admire the melodies and vocals.

Eye Of Shiva give a lot of peace to me, by the way.

[Franz]

Of course bands make music they think other people would think are cool, they want to look cool. It is however not only in Europe. Those bands are everywhere. To get to your list of words: "death" "die" "sun" "moon" those are common things even in daily speech. Yes, it might be cliche every now and then, but I would say that sometimes even these words can come along very very strong. Besides that, sometimes cliches work better than anything.

I would agree with what LakeOfTearz said: refresh your collection. Pain of Salvation, Meshuggah and what Thor said are just examples of european bands that write with emotion. While I'm at it, check out Alchemist if you don't know them yet. They're australian and the best band on progpower europe this year.

[Mordred]

It's quite an interesting point you make. If I look at Rhapsody for instance the lyrics go along the lines "I take my emerald sword and gloriously slay the dark Dragonlord somewhere in the Black Mountains where the unicorns get eaten by dwarves". And you have the same words in each of their songs.
I liked Rhapsody when I got to know them but also lost my interest rather quickly.

On the other hand some bands tend to be a bit too personal. As one of them I count Nightwish. Tuomas might as well have called the last album "Me, myself and I"; at least, if you listen to the first two songs.

Anyway, part of Therion's success are probably their unique lyrics. Havn't heard of another band that does songs in Akkadian or uses mythlogical topics like Bureus's Kabballah.

[blackrose]

I'm talking about in particular the power metal/symphonic metal scene. Exactly like what mordred said. Its about dragons and vikings etc.

 Yeah some Therion songs I can connect with. The newer ones seem better. Perrenial Sophia, yeah the value of wisdom. Maybe even aldruna. Yeah Therion has a bit of a different character. I do like the more abstract intellectual lyrics but they could probably put a little more variety in it and do some emotion occasionally or some different type of subject. I know its not my place to say and that's their style but I wasn't really talking much about Therion. With Therion I feel the lyrics may not be personal enough, you might want to write about your own experience and not some 16th century monks for instance, but their lyrics are true. They are writing about something that interests them and something that is "real" even if only in a mythological way.

 Some examples of what I'm talking about, firstly Mordred gave a great example.

Man o War/Hammerfall but especially Man O War. When I first heard them I loved their music. Because I actually believe in Asatru (Odinism) I believe in walking the way of the warrior. I thought the band had the same feelings and were serious about their lyrics. Especially the older lyrics sound that way (this is the way of the warrior) etc. But then I started hearing lyrics like "take my horse and sword and give them to my wife" and I'm like what! Oh this is all about some fantasy of people writing lyrics pretending to be Vikings living in the middle ages. Theres not real feeling there just some lyrical concept based on %100 make believe.

 Sirenia: The new album is amazing. But when you really analyze what they are singing about. The music invokes great feeling. But its all a false sense. When you analyze what they are singing about it has little meaning. And the same key words are in every album since tristania first came out "pale moon" etc. as I was mentioning earlier, then it seems like they just threw in some choir parts that barely fit with the rest of the music just to keep it popular in the symphonic genre.

 Blind Guardian: same stuff. Medieval fantasy.

Not saying the fantasy lyrics aren't cool. But when everybody is doing it and every song is so abstract it becomes over used. I guess I crave something I can relate to a little more. Like people singing about their true feelings not copying a paragraph from JRR Tolkien and using it as a song lyric.

 I mean these lyrics are a cool concept. But the meaning of cliche is something that was at first original or in fashion but that has been over used to the point where it is predictable and bland, and entirely unoriginal and without thought. What once was exiting now is bland/cliche'. Take if a girl wears a bright red dress as a fashion statement. Everybody is impressed. It is beautiful. It came from her own mind and her own beauty. Suddenly everybody is wearing the same dress. Even people who it does not look good on. To the point that you can predict that someone is going to wear it. It no longer looks beautiful, it is no longer stylish or original it just an overused fashion statement. That is cliche'. Same as the lyrics. The new bands aren't writing some great concept they came up with in their head but just rehashing the same old stuff they already did or what some other popular band is doing. To the point where you could almost program a computer to write their lyrics because it is just a random assortment of the same words and phrases.

 To the bright side I sort of like what leaves eyes has done which though the same in many ways there seems to be a genuine passion for the lyrics and the singer also being the lyric writer helps a lot too. Therion is definatly not too bad either, but I wouldn't rank them real high at the same time.

 The problem is %90 of the music industry is all cliche', I mean even the guitars, drums etc. Take Therion. What they did with  combining symphony and metal was a bold move. It came from Christofers true interest in metal and symphony. He understands the music and makes beautiful music from it. Now every band wants to add a symphony. They don't even like or understand symphony though and it really doesn't have the same effect. Same stuff with the lyrics. I guess I have two complaints, the lack of personal level to the lyrics and also the cliche' leve.

 And I blame the record companies and producers a lot. They have no originality and encourage a lot bands to do what they consider to be more popular which is just copying the most succesful groups in the genre or just age old formats they've used for years. I think they ruined Within Temptation for example.

 Cliches' come in many different forms. In mainstream music it can be the fake love songs. I understand I hate those songs too because they are not from the heart they are all so fake. Some people can feel this kind of music but I can't. In European metal its the nordic myth/occult cliche'. The subject isn't the problem so much as the fact that it is entirely unoriginal, its not coming from the heart, there is not true feeling or passion for the subjects on the side of the artists. And like I was saying it even goes to the extreme point that the lyrics are non sensical at times. They really are random phrases (usually meant to conjure emotion) and have no point.

[Markus]

Hey Blackrose,

I do see your point, and I agree to a certain extent. But I want to remind you that you can't say "there's emotion in this song, and there's none in that". All you can say for sure is whether a song touches you emotionally or not. Specifically Therion lyrics: What is more intellectual to you and doesn't raise big emotions in you may bring others to tears.

Cheers!

Markus

[blackrose]

hmm there can be some subjectivity, but I think if I sing about the sun god or a fictional story, or rasputin or something I don't think that really is something that will invoke tears in most normal people.

 I feel Therion does have vision. It is perfectly legitimate to make lyrics about such facinating subjects. It is only a matter of taste or preference that I would like something more personal in some of their lyrics.

 However with most of the music industry I don't think they have vision or an appreciation for art. I think most artists don't set out and put their feelings to music or their visions. No. From the start they say "I want to be a rock star" and their entire focus is on being big, making money and fame. This is something I touched on in another post I think as metal becomes less popular the music quality goes up as less people are in it for the money (if they were they would be doing rap or pop or something).

 I think with symphonic metal especially part of the thing I don't like is the music itself is so emotional. Opera singing and the violen and flute especially to me are such magical and sacred instruments. The operatic style of singing is emotional. And it is used as though it were grass in a field. Any stupid lyric is now used in a song and put the most highly trained singers. It almost makes the genre and opera loose its power when it is used in such a profane way.

 It seems like any band that started playing yesterday with little to no education is ready to make an album. They throw out something that sounds decent at times but really required no effort or real vision. And we are flooded with countless songs that sing about the most sacred and special things in life or use the most special forms of melody and song structure as though it were waking up and taking a sh*t.

 It's like lets just go in the studio and make an album. We will throw a random beat with some random chords (usually stuff we did in some other album or song or that we copied off someone else), take about fifteen minutes to write the lyrics and put our first or second take (recording) on the album then promote the hell out of it. Sadly people buy it.

 There's something so lost in the music industry today. It is all a business, not an artform anymore. A handful of bands I suppose still deal with art. The problem is most real artists don't have the skill or resources needed to produce their vision in a commercially sustainable way. But a lot of times a successful band will hire these very talented but poor people and bring them into the spot light (think of ozzy discovering Zakk Wylde) which is a great thing to do.

 Its like if you had a painting, you don't just slap some paint on a canvas make it into the exact copy of something you saw someone else do or mimick some other successful painting you put out and call it art. No. You see something that moves you, you have some vision in your mind, you make something special. You communicate this emotional side of life through the art.

 

[Wicket]

But classical operas are pretty much all about fictional stories...  Look at Wagner's Ring Cycle for an obvious choice, it's heavily based on the Nibelungenlied and the Volsungasaga... Do these operas not have lyrical value because Wagner didn't write about his life in a profoundly obvious way? With most stories (that are considered by most to have value) you have to look beyond the literal meaning. I think the same can definitely be said for Therion.

Rhapsody (of Fire) on the other hand... not so much!     

[blackrose]

Most Operas and classical music are about Christian spirituality. Wagner is a bit more contemporary. Italian operas some of them can be so profoundly emotional that without even understanding the language you can literally understand the story from the feeling that the singer and song conveys to you. Those are a lot about love and tragedy. Fictional stories maybe but ones that we all can relate to as many people have experienced similar stories.

 I was saying that is preferance, that I would like something easier to relate to. Wagner had vision. He didn't just say (as far as I know) I'm going to write some operas for the purpose of making a bunch of money and getting fame. Which if the song writer doesn't understand music, doesn't understand his music, his songs won't be too good. I mean they might be easy to listen to, but they aren't moving. Wagner didn't just copy and paste stuff that other people did or follow some basic song format that is the same with every song. Also almost all writers of classical music were highly educated and spent years training and learning music appreciation and the finer points of song writing, which is one reason their music is often very complex.

 Even a lot of the classical music though I think was produced en masse because of kings and wealthy people demanding more and more songs. Look at Bach who wrote hundreds of songs. I don't know maybe a thousand. Much of the music sounds alike and really it would have been better for him to simply have less songs that are more different and of higher quality. So I guess the problem of commercialization exists even in the classics, but surely the quality was much higher then. You didn't have any peasant that could afford a violen recording himself with the intent of getting rich.

[Mordred]

Sometimes bands create something new and unique and their success depends on the general taste of the public. Black Sabbath was adored by many coz they introduced a new kind of music that found great acceptance and admiration among the "sub-culture". Half a year later 100s of bands tried to copy them; some successfully most not.

It's very hard to generalize that but often songwriters stick to the way they make the music because they a) can't do any or much better (eg Grave Digger), b) find themselves more or less successful and dont wanna piss off their fans, c) it's their way of life, don't care about success, like many underground BM/NSBM-Bands who print maybe 100 copies of an album and give it to selected/equally retarded people.

If you look at Grave Digger their music hasn't really changed since 1980. It has more melodies and more meaning behind their lyrics, like The Medieval Trilogy. But a great change in expressions/vocabulary never happened. It's still about death, glory, shadows, curses, blood, honor and god knows what.

I guess it's fair to say that for every successful and unique artist there will be hundreds of bands trying to copy them with more or less success and little own creativity. Within Wemptation for instance is clearly inspired by Nightwish. They had a few songs that sold well, but also disappeared quickly from the main stage.

Many bands don't improve their lyrics greatly, because they either see themselves as part of a sub-culture which expects a certain lyrical framework and this is what their fans expect. If Metallica started singing about Gnosticism or Norse mythology 80 % of their deeply devoted fans would turn their backs on them.

[blackrose]

Copying is part of it. But mainly its about taking the music seriously. Treat it as art. Something special. Not a product. Spend a lot of time and work on something as well. Instead of spending twice as much to promote something as you did in actually making it.

 Seems to me like all these wanna bes has ruined the symphonic metal genre. Even though its a new genre I suppose.

[TheOFFman]

I think that what makes me fascinated by Therion's lyrics are the mistery involved, and this mixed with the melodies that only Therion can do is something unique for me...If I would know everything about the lyrics I don't think they would have the same magic than before...and other thing is that I do not read, so I end up catching the lyrics and fantasizing a lot, just like in a book...I enjoy it so much! Therion is a great journey to me.

I had to quote this cause I couldn't write it better myself. 

[Mildred]

in my case i love to read and is very interestung to me the therion's lyrics and the merging with the music at least for me is perfect, perhaps there is not a conection with things that we have lived, but i am pretty sure that every Therion's fan has lived something special while they listened to Therion and the feeling that they had at that moment resurges again when they listen that song

[EvanSawyer]

look, my take on it is that Symphonic Metal is in some way a "Grand" and "Epic" sounding kind of Metal, and when your lyrics don't match that, that's when it sounds fake.

I remember sometimes i would look for Lyrics to put in mp3 descriptions, I would sometimes feel betrayed when I saw things like Epica talking about "paying the bill", or After Forever talking about "feeling like in the movies".

that's what sounds fake to me, using choirs to talk about the simplest things

[Franz]

Don't underestimate the power of 'simple' things.

[Majestic Beast]

I don't claim rules about lyrics in a specific genre...they can talk about everything, mix topics and the result can be great.

[blackrose]

 I'm not focusing my criticism much on Therion. I guess I'm starting to connect more with American metal and the lyrics nowadays. But also the European symphonic/power metal scene sucks. You have a handful of really great professional bands like Therion for instance. Then probably thousands of bands that sound terrible but are given record deals and promotion for god knows whatever reasons (and they have a nice little small fan base). Which the music is so bad I think I could almost make it in this industry and I know my music is not good. Well I wouldn't say they are making it, as they usually sell maybe a few thousand albums or maybe ten or twenty thousand then sink out of popularity and end up working in a factory. The question is why they are even promoted in the begining when its obvious they don't know what they are doing. Just randomly buy some NB albums of bands you never heard of. Sometimes these bands might make one or two good songs. A lot of it is just we will play really fast and beat on the drums really fast and people get impressed.

And then the symphonic metal genre is for anyone who can afford a symphony uses it, thinking automatically that it will sell albums (which I remember reading something Chris said like this). Yet they have no clue about symphony and no appreciation of the music so its all a waste anyway. Or we will get this beautiful singer and it will sell albums. Well the most moving singer is not going to be too useful when he/she is singing about pointless things. There's no heart to the music. Its all about making noise and spitting out albums like a machine without a soul.

 Some bands like Epica are fairly good. And there is some artistic expression here but they are rushed out and promoted for money. A lot of this is the record companys expecting to put time frames on creativity and producers like I said earlier. But half their lyrics is about the same thing. Muslims and their faith and terrorism. It seems bland to keep writing about the same thing.

Well for some good lyrics and strong feeling check out Godsmacks "hollow". "I feel so hollow" it is something that I think most people can connect to. Or even take the old 80s metal "bang your head" "every rose has its thorn", "rock you like a hurricane" simple topics that everyone can relate to. It has a great appeal, but I think also an honesty about it. An honesty that is lacking in most of the European metal scene. I'm not talking about Nightwish or Therion or Leaves Eyes or any of the giants but the masses of thousands of bands out there. Its upsetting that its so hard to find good music when you have to sort through 20,000 bands that are all crap that never should have been produced anyway.

 I am starting to feel really disconnected from most of the music industry. Exept for a few bands it all seems so disapointng.

[Naut]

I find the conviction in which a band uses in their performance, the singing of their lyrics is important. You have a lot of bands that just sort of spit out lyrics but you don't really feel they come from the soul. If they can't feel it how could I ever feel it?

Ones personal relation to the music is also meaningful. I found while listening to Iced Earths Glorious Burden album that following the lyrics and knowing there is truth and true human suffering behind it; made it all the more powerful to me. Their voice and passions allowed me to feel emotion on a historical event. While I might still feel something reading of the epic struggle in a history book they passions spoke to me and made it real.

If you're looking for good music, don't expect the radio to guide you to it. They are a failure in that sense, they do not play what is good and what would fit for the fans, not at least in North America. I believe firmly that the American Radio Stations for the most part work on a payola systems. It's the only way Cornershops Brim full of Asha could have been overplayed on a new rock radio station in Toronto. It doesn't fit and it a fucking horrible song (in my opinion) You also notice cookie cutter bands popping out of the woodwork with no uniqueness or specialty. They have nothing powerful or special about them - they just sing about the same recycled garbage will maybe have 1 - 3 decent hits in their time till the next band steals the spot light. You get so raped by this crap.

"Then one fine mornin' she puts on a New York station. You know her life was saved by Rock 'n' Roll."
- The Velvet Underground, "Rock And Roll"

I don't feel we live in such a time anymore.