Author Topic: Sitra Ahra  (Read 27687 times)

ahsatan

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Sitra Ahra
« on: April 18, 2006, 06:52:00 AM »
Ok so I am new here but I have done some reading and searching so if I missed an already running topic that would be appropriate for this question then my apologies to the mods - feel free to move it or whatever  ;)
 To my question: I have been researching as much information as I can find regarding the Sitra Ahra, I understand what this is, but it is more the formation process that remains unclear for me. I have knowledge of the Lurianic "breaking of vessels" myth however it is Nathan of Gaza's Two Light teaching that I was hoping to gain some info on. Can anyway here point me in this direction? Any discussion some of you would like to add would be welcomed also.
 Cheers!
 ~A

Ahriman

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2006, 10:18:00 AM »
There is several theories concerning how the Tree Of Death was formed.One is that it was created by unbalanced force pouring from one Sephiroth to another,when force poured from Kether to create Chokmah,there was a period of unbalanced force that created Qliphothic Kether,and in like manner for rest of the Sephiroth.Second is that there was several Trees Of Life that were created and destroyed in the past and that remains of those destructions are the Qliphoth,chaotic and destructive forces from ancient times and this is the theory that is used by Dragon Rouge,so far as I know,they claim such Qliphoths contain ancient knowledge,since they are from the ancient times.These two are the most common theories as there are many others.Such is the genesis of Sitra Ahra.I hope this was useful for you.If you are searching for books written by Nathan of Gaza then you will have hard time finding those.And if you do they will probably be in Hebrew.You can find books by Sabbatai Zevi.
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-3628410-9740721?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Sabbatai+Zevi&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

ahsatan

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2006, 07:03:00 AM »
Damn I lost my reply so I'll just write a shortened version.
 Thanx Ahriman, yes it is all useful.
 I haven't read the belief that the Sephiroth has gone through several creations and destructions and the remnants of which form the Kliffotic forces. Hmmm intesting. Is it known how times this has occurred? Is there a continuous cycle of the creation and destruction of the Sephiroth?
 
 One theory that interests me is that the Kliffoth was formed as an anti-thesis to the Sephiroth but I have bearly scratched the surface myself on these things.
 
 Sorry if my post makes hardly any sense, I am sure the one I lost did but now I have ran out of time, will know better next time to type in a txt doc  ;)

Ahriman

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2006, 10:45:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ahsatan:
 Is it known how times this has occurred? Is there a continuous cycle of the creation and destruction of the Sephiroth?
 
 One theory that interests me is that the Kliffoth was formed as an anti-thesis to the Sephiroth but I have bearly scratched the surface myself on these things.
I am not sure but I think I read somewhere that they were destroyed four times.I dont think it is cyclical process at all.That the Kliffoth are the antithesis of the Sephiroth can come from two directions,either the first theory I described (pouring of force from one Sephiroth to another),or theory by Kenneth Grant and Michael Bertiaux who claim that Tree Of Death is the mirror image of the Tree Of Life,and therefore antithesis since in the mirror everything is inverted.But in any theory Kliffoth are considered inverted or evil aspects of Sephiroths.

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 09:13:15 PM »
The two headed eagle: good and evil are two sides on the same coin. Thus the complete man is a unification of both aspects yin and yang they cannot exist without each other. without death there is no life, without chaos no order. Why there is an unbalanced preference towards the disorder, chaos, darkness etc. in Therion lyrics I can only guess maybe because it is cool to be satanic in metal.
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Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 07:13:58 PM »
I have knowledge of the Lurianic "breaking of vessels" myth however it is Nathan of Gaza's Two Light teaching that I was hoping to gain some info on.

Actually Nathan was just a "speaker" for Shabtai Cvi :)
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 08:26:25 PM »
Oh, sorry Ahriman, didn't see Your note on him...



Well, as I study kabbalah during my Jewish studies, I can tell You more about it - but of course, only from the pure kabbalistic (Jewish kabbalah, there are later people who are "doing and building new theories and such" of kabbalah but it does not usually have anything to do with the original source) point of view. :) And even I am not able to tell everything - cause there is still so much to find out in these hidden mysteries :)
That's also why I won't write about Shabtai Zvi/Sabtaj Cvi or any other mutation of his name in the different langs :) His tradition is heretic for Jews and actually I never liked him that much to study him more. But yes, he was interesting and his life was taking strange ways :)

For those who would like to know just about the meaning of "Sitra Ahra" this is good answer: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Kabbalah/kelippot.htm

Now for the story about the origin of the Sitra Ahra...

As You might find on the wiki or elsewhere Isaac Luria lived 1534 – July 25, 1572. Which is just after the expulsion of Jews from West Europe and mainly - Spain and Portugal. Back then - bit earlier also started the inquisition etc.. and the suffering and most the exile made the Jews think of the existence of evil in world more than ever before. You have to understand (well, You don't have to of course) that for them the Exile was the most terrible tragedy!

And amongst "normal" people there were also the kabbalists thinking a lot about the theodicy (problem of existence of the evil).
The view before Isaac's theory was that it comes from the fall of the Human... mainly.

Isaac Luria came with something absolutely new into the kabbalah. In the times of his life many kabbalists started to think what was before the Creation. What was before Bereshit (Genesis) - that could be of course marked as heresy also but in such hard times the rules were more liberal than before...
Luria was one of those people who wasn't afraid to explore this and create his hypothesis... He comes with an idea that the Creation, existence and tikkun (tikkun olam - repairing the world) is great cosmic drama.

Creates two new concepts:

Tzimtzum = contraction or constriction

Shevirat ha-kelim = the breaking of vessels (as the vessel imagine here something more like and Greek amphora "vase", or simply a bigger bowl)

With these thoughts he was mainly working with Sefer Zohar - just created the new concept. He was thinking how was G-d possible to create "something likely different" when he was everywhere? So he came up with theory that he had to limit himself => he made a tzimtzum = he limited himself into himself so he made like this and exile into himself - which created the "empty space" but where dwells the Shekhinah and where is able to place Creation :) 
( He tried like this to accent like this the theory of "creatio ex nihilo").
So now, after this Luria thought out that only after that the G-d's middot. So now we can say that the exile is not only an "earth thing" but it's metaphysical :)

- now he connects into it the Tree of Life - Ilan ha-etz or Etz Chayim :) if You wish.

The G-d is immanent and from him comes many emanations. The very first one was the Adam Kadmon (or Adam ha-rishon). But the emanation of G-d's light (Ór Ein Sof) was so strong was too strong and too intensive that the vessels (sephirot) got broken, some were only damaged but exactly Malkuth (the one which si closest to our material world) got terribly broken.

And the pieces of the original vessels with some rests of the Ór Ein Sof (mhmmmm... imagine it like if You put in the amphora Campari and orange juice - the Campari gets settled down and when the amphora breaks some of the Campari lefts on th pieces) are so called kelippot, kliphoth etc... the Sitra Ahra side.
Thanks to these rests of the Light the kelippot are able of their own existence and they are trying to make their own Creation but because like only a broken pieces of china they don't have the real value on their own so they parasite on the energy of Ór Ein Sof.

----

Luria got a thesis that the rupture was was contemplated so thanks to it the Human can get the free will.


Sorry that it is so long but that's still "only" the extraction :) it can be much more complicated and I am not far enough to discuss it more and actually I don't even want too :)

Please keep in mind that all this is just "LIKE" - he imagined it LIKE  VESSELS, etc...


P.S.: No, blackrose - I will not discuss this stuff with you. :)


If someone is interested a lot I can recommend some literature :)
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

LakeOfTearz

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 10:12:11 PM »
Funny there's a topic with this subject for such a long time here.
Nice piece of info Sarah Mirjam.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 05:35:04 PM »
I thought the kabbalah was not accepted in mainstream judaism? Likewise it seems hard to study judaism from literature. It is nearly impossible to get my hands on the talmud unless I pay $500 for some books. These all seem to stem basically from the countless theories of existances which are unprovable and all contradict each other. Though from what I understand the "star of David" symbol of Judaism is a modern symbol from kabbalalistic thought not old testament judaism (its a seal of solomon). The contact I've had with the kabbalaistic philosophy is basically that it is a general occult philosophy dealing with the interconnectedness of all thngs (such as sympathetic magick) and the ability of numbers and geometric designs to have power in our universe.

I guess this is going back to churches point that evil is really the absense of God which was proposed by some medieval philosopher (forgot his name). Yet when you examine all these theories they contradict themselves or are full of unprovable assumptions then are presented in a complicated and confuseing manner so as to look authoritive. They seem to be just more advanced forms of Christianity in other words.


If we are to believe this stuff we must also believe that logic has no value or that observation is meaningless and that only make believe made up realities are true. Let's give an example: God is all powerful, unknowable. The goal of the religion is to know god. See first statement. God is infintiely good. Yet evil exists in the world. A contradiction. So we must say that God somehow created a void- an area where he doesn't exist. This again contradicts the prveious statements. It would seem the lies of Christianity and its various manifestations like these satanist theories are only illusions that keep people from seeing the actual truth.

nonetheless there are practical applications of the hidden mysteries that are vieled behind the nonsense. If you read the book of revalation for example it says that Jesus is the morning star. It also says lucifer is morning star and basically Jesus and Satan are the same person! I read that kind of stuff and I'm like- does any Christian actually read the bible?
It all goes back to the same philosophy that good and evil are two aspects of the same God. (or some oneness). lies, contradictions, illusions etc. are always used because the unworthy doesnt' deserve the truth handed to him- it must be earned.

But the Sitra Ahra philsoophy seems about as valid as the philosophy of Swedenborg or the crazy guy down the street that thinks he's Jesus
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 05:37:49 PM by blackrose »
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Markus

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 07:57:47 PM »
Hey Rosie,

yes indeed, in Judaism god is seen as essentially unknowable since he is beyond anything, hence also beyond any thought and experience. Kether is the closest you can get to him, but Ain Soph itself remains a mystery. The believers are trying to approach this immense, i.e. unmeasurable truth. No one seriously into Judaism and Kabbalah claims to know the truth, they are discussing possibilities. Hence there is no real contradiction. And this sharp-witted discussion is one thing I respect so much about this religion.

Please tell me the exact bible passage that says that Satan is the morning star. (Hint: There is none, but don't trust me, see for yourself!)

Also the existence of evil is not a contradiction to the statement "God is good". It is merely a question. "God is not good" is a possible reply, but not the only one. If you want to be really informed before discussing again, please look up "theodicy" first.

Of course you can spend hundreds of dollars for editions of the Talmud containing dozens of volumes, but you can get a selection for less than 20 bucks.

Cheers!

Markus
Modesty is a great thing when you have something to be modest about... But when a droplet tells the world in big words that it's not an ocean but only a small lake...

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Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 08:31:59 PM »
About the Talmud - as far as You are not able to read in the original language, blackrose - it has no sense :)

Funny there's a topic with this subject for such a long time here.
Nice piece of info Sarah Mirjam.

Sorry, Andrea, wasn't  here for longer time - may I ask You where? If I knew that, I'd post it there of course  :oops:
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 08:34:41 PM by Sarah Mirjam »
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

Markus

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »
No sense at all?  :?  :cry:

I've read a translation of some excerpts, and I did gain something from it. It was a commented version, though, which explained the different possibilities to read the Torah-passages.

Cheers!

Markus
Modesty is a great thing when you have something to be modest about... But when a droplet tells the world in big words that it's not an ocean but only a small lake...

EGO SUM CAMMARUS, VECTOR

Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 08:41:19 PM »
Well, not exactly "absolutely no sense" :) It depends a lot on how do You study it - the problem is that for many people is hard to sort out the "junk" from the "gold (or rather say in the Jewish tradition :D silver)"

At least it is good to have the bilingual book - one side in Hebrew and the other one English, German or simply Your native language. For example Artscroll releases these versions of Talmud. And of course to study at least the Hebrew Alephbet. :) Because the letters say a lot :)
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 08:46:43 PM »
Nope. I can't find the talmud anywhere. Only "commentary on the Talmud" being sold as Talmud where they take little quotes here and there. It may have something to do with in the Talmud it says non-Jews are not to read it or something. I have found it on the sacred religion site but I'm not sure how complete or accurate that is.

I understand there are some things beyond human logic. some intuitive insights, shadows that we can grasp. But it doesn't seem treated like that it seems like things which have almost no validity are treated like science.

I'm heavily into religion, the occult, philosophy etc. I just don't find Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic faiths to be reasonable. I don't think evil exists I more or less see the world as Nietzsche views it- evil is subjective- everything is relative which can be traced back to quantum physics. There is only what is good for me and what is not. Only what is useful and what isn't. If you tell a lie and it saves someone's life then it is "good" if you tell a lie and it hurts someone it is "bad". It is subjective. If I kill a pig in order to have some bacon for breakfast maybe the pig thinks I'm evil. but would it be correct for me to starve myself? Is that the greatest good? Even a plant can feel, be killed etc. so being vegan isn't an answer.

anyway I can't write like this. When I type the thing scrolls up and down and I can't see what I'm typing the screen is bouncing all over and I have all kinds of typos just accidently deleted half of what I wrote so..
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Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2010, 08:49:12 PM »
Nope. I can't find the talmud anywhere.

And what is this? :)
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

Hatecraft

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 08:50:28 PM »
Nope. I can't find the talmud anywhere.

And what is this? :)
That probably has an occult absurd explanation for blackrose. It doesn't exist.

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2010, 08:52:34 PM »
About the Talmud - as far as You are not able to read in the original language, blackrose - it has no sense :)


Yes even the Christian Bible makes no sense and is often (seemingly purposely) mistranslated. This goes back to another thing about world view- reality can be relative to culture and understanding of such would be as well.

As I understand it most of the texts in Hebrew are written in a poetic form. It is the same with the Aryan Vedas. It is totally lost in translation. Well even the Viking sagas and such were poetic. Not only that but even the exact meaning of some of the words and such are mistranslated or somewhat lost.

hey you guys are replying faster than i can post lol

I read a supposed Talmud quote that I really liked a long time ago, "better to be at the tails of lions than the head of a sheep". Reminds me of benito Mussolini, "better to live one day as a lion than 1,000 years as a sheep"
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Markus

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2010, 08:54:33 PM »
Indeed, your writing is quite messy, Rosie. I don't even understand what you're trying to say as there is no punctuation to speak of.

If being evil means causing pointless suffering then you surely are doing evil - or bad - by the bacon thingy because you could easily live well and healthy without killing creatures that feel and probably even think logically to a certain degree. But I'm sure the evil of the Sitra Ahra as it is understood here refers to other things.

Cheers!

Markus
Modesty is a great thing when you have something to be modest about... But when a droplet tells the world in big words that it's not an ocean but only a small lake...

EGO SUM CAMMARUS, VECTOR

Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2010, 08:58:57 PM »
Well, the main problem about Hebrew is with the roots (or radicals) of verbs and with vocals in any word...

For examle You have a word "olam" which means world, eternity etc... but if You change the vocal in the beginning from "o" to "e" - You have "elam" which means hidden  :-D

All these little changes have usually terribly deep and important meaning :)
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2010, 09:15:08 PM »
Ah! Well look when I type a short message its fine. The screen does crazy things and I can't see what I'm typing if I go past a certain point. I guess it's cuz I use e explorer. Though- Yes! I agree! Stupidity, ignorance- that is the true evil. This is the source of needless suffering. We all could maintain a pretty high quality of life if we were healthy- smart enough, educated enough, had good instincts etc. But suffering is inevitable. All things die. Some people may think death is evil. Or pain is evil. It's not. It is healthy when part of a balanced life. People may think sex is evil or money or anything like that. A lot of that stems from the Christian slave religion.
Talmud 72 books $50 each with tax and such it should cost me about $4,000 to read.
5.Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
3.Amos 5:8
Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:
Isaah 14:12 though they say this refers to a king and not a spirutal entitiy:
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
Rev. 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He says the poor will not enter the kingdom of heaven in mathew then in revelation tells his diciplies to be rich. He speaks of taking his father's throne. Satan was cast out of heaven. Jesus came down from heaven. Satan is of the flesh, Jesus assumed human flesh form etc.
Rev-
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich

Jesus also idnetifies himself as a liar but I don't want to bring too many quotes and make this too long. There are two religions of Christianity- one for the weak, and one for the strong. They both worship the same God. The weak call their god Jesus, the strong call him Satan that is the new name he speaks of in revelation. Satan means adversary. Well the slave is an adversary to no one- he is obedient to all. The person who is bold, brave and struggles to accomplish is like a lion- an adversary, a competitior. The same god wears two faces. In my view Christianity and Judaism is the same religion in a similar way Judaism teaches people to be strong, rich etc. x-ianityh to be poor, weak etc,
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 09:19:33 PM by blackrose »
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Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 08:09:47 PM »
I think that because You don't know judaism well - You consider it as same like Christianity but these to religions are very very different :)
You cannot simply "put it in the same sack" just because it has some things in common. :) Yes, they share they use the same (not exactly the same) and same God (and yes, not exactly the same God). Because their view on the Word is so different and also the view on the God.
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 09:07:52 PM »
How so? Well Christians have no view. I've pretty much boiled down Christianity to its essense: to be a slave that blindly believes anything. EAch Christian church has a diferent belief. The only thing in common is that they all reject logic, observation, using their own brain and surrender their will over to their master and believe blindly whatever the church tells them and supposedly believe blindly in whatever is printed in their official book but they usually ignore what is in the book and interpret it however they are told to.

If today I go to a Christian church and the preacher/priest says "God is a giant beaver" then it is so. If tommorow he says God doesn't exist then it is so. Simply believe what you are told- that is the basis of every form of x-ianity and the only thing in common.

So when we speak of Judeo-Christianity mainly we speak of Judaism which is the general culture behind Christianity. Basically it is what leads Christianity. This belief for example that evil exists, I don't accept evil as an absolute term.

Anyway political correctness is Christianity. In political correctness no debate, no logic, no observation is allowed, only blindly following what we are told. It is reinforced through social pressure, just a xu-anity is.
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Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 12:20:30 PM »
I see that You don't know absolutely anything about differences between these two beliefs and about different groups of Christians :)
That's why this is the end of the debate about it for me now :)
"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out."

kinjarb037

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 03:56:06 PM »
I see that You don't know absolutely anything about differences between these two beliefs and about different groups of Christians :)
That's why this is the end of the debate about it for me now :)

you could have ended your post right after the word "anything", and everybody would have agreed with you anyway.
 :-D

kundrian

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 05:00:17 PM »

you could have ended your post right after the word "anything", and everybody would have agreed with you anyway.
 :-D

Good to see some sense of cool humor around, among the smoke of burning brains and all the shades of perceptions. We're on Sitra Ahra topic, right?  :-D  :-P

blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2010, 06:48:14 PM »
It seems "Sitra Ahra" simply means "the other side" and refers to the dark side of the soul. The concept here is that after suffering or wrestling with such a side we can be made stronger. Struggle makes us stronger, confrontation with our hidden nature or desires also begets strength.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Bible/Weekly_Torah_Portion/vayishlah_uahc5762.shtml

I suppose this is what was meant by "kali yuga" as well in the song they say "the dark side of the soul" though I always took kali yuga to be the ages of human society (akin to Greece's golden age, stone age etc.).

Anyway it seems to respresent a natural polarity arrising from free will. Sitra Ahra of the left hand path of the tree of life (more associated with the female side) represents those choices we should not make and what is undesirable. The poorly formed vessels might be symbolic of the imperfect nature of sitra ahra which arrises from flaws, imperfections and waste. In other words Sitra Ahra is like crap. All animals must produce waste, its a needed by product of existance, but something that is to be contained and not cultivated but also should be dealt with not ignored.

I suppose some satanist would believe there is a great power in tapping an evil selfish side of the soul. As most immorallity is related to selfishness and severance from the divine. By severing oneself from God one is allowed to become a God himself. In which case we would get back to Neitzsche type of morality based on what is good for me is right- relativity of morals.
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Markus

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2010, 10:43:40 PM »
Hey Blackrose,

yes of course, "Sitra Ahra" means "the other side". I think this is the first fact mentioned in almost every article about it. It refers to the dark side of the soul, too. But it's more than that. As the Tree of Life can be seen as a "map" of the human soul but also as a map of different levels of the universe and even as properties of god. Hence the Sitra Ahra also represents whole dark worlds and, if you want to say so, a dark side of god himself.

You have misunderstood "Kali Yuga", though. It says "dark night of the soul", not "dark side". I would really like you to read the lyrics before interpreting them, else you'll never understand them.

Working with the dark side is more than being selfish (unless you're a LaVey-ean satanist, perhaps). When you turn away from god and consciously eat the fruit of the knowledge then you might come to the conclusion that god not only forbids things he should allow but that he also allows things that are wrong. In that case you'll be more strict to yourself.

So it's not just about declaring one's power and saying: "I don't give a damn about anyone else anymore, I am god now!". It's a long and demanding and often painful process. Note that apotheosis happens on the level of Thaumiel, the highest qlipha - and that even Thagirion in the middle of the tree is not that easy to reach.

Cheers!

Markus
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blackrose

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2010, 04:56:35 AM »
okay I know almost nothing about Kabbalah. I study Asatru/Odinism. What does strike me is the similiarity though with the runes having sigil power and multiple layers of meanings like the hebrew alphabet and the tree of life in both systems, though the Norse tree of life is a bit different in concept I think and also more tied to actual trees (sacred groves are part of the religion).

From what I read also there are countless different types of Kabbalah study and the recommendation is to study it from one system only first before picking, choosing and combining different systems. But what would be a good source to study kabbalah? It involves visualizing worlds?

From what I read on the web from Jewish websites they claim the sitra ahra is something to struggle against not embrace so there's so many conflicting views its hard to know what view Therion lyrics are coming from. I guess one must study dragon rouge or something.
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Markus

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2010, 10:43:36 AM »
Hey Blackrose,

yes, the Tree of Life is more complex and more abstract than Yggdrasil - although, of course, you find or at least construct relations between the two.

And yes, in classical Kabbalah the Sitra Ahra is something to be shunned. It's in dark tradidtions - and rather young tradidtions if I'm not mistaken - that the other side is considered something you should experience and use. Classical Kabbalah aims at the greatest possible unity with god, Qliphotic Kabbalah at the greatest possible duality.

Visualising worlds is surely one possible way to work with this, but there are many others.

If you're interested in Qliphotic Kabbalah as it is reflected in Therion's lyrics then I can highly recommend the book by Thomas Karlsson. He gives an overview of classical Kabbalah, including several classical views of the Sitra Ahra, and then introduces the version of the Tree of Death he is using. You will even find some advice for actual workings if you're interested in that.

Cheers!

Markus
Modesty is a great thing when you have something to be modest about... But when a droplet tells the world in big words that it's not an ocean but only a small lake...

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Delenn

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Re: Sitra Ahra
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2010, 01:34:25 PM »
Hey Blackrose,

yes, the Tree of Life is more complex and more abstract than Yggdrasil - although, of course, you find or at least construct relations between the two.

And yes, in classical Kabbalah the Sitra Ahra is something to be shunned. It's in dark tradidtions - and rather young tradidtions if I'm not mistaken - that the other side is considered something you should experience and use. Classical Kabbalah aims at the greatest possible unity with god, Qliphotic Kabbalah at the greatest possible duality.



Not necessarily, if You check the story which I wrote somewhere down in the elder posts, the Qliphot are somehow keeping parts of the Ór Ein Sof - which is good, so they are not that bad on their own. Still keeping some "goodness". They are still parts of Sephirot even when they are torn apart from them. And in Judaism G-d says that he's the good and the bad both so these two "antigonisms" can be kept together and that creates zero :)
But of course for many laics the Sitra Ahra was an imagination of "pure hell" :)
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