Topic: Wine of Aluqah

[Ahriman]

LaVey is not much of a resource on true left hand path magic

[BloodDaemon]

Very true, but this course studied him precisely as the mass phenomenon he represents through his "not very profound" (and I am sorry if anyone here is a follower) cult.    

[Ahriman]

He can get credit for one thing and it is the fact that he made left hand path more widespread in general

[black_rose]

and what's the Book of Lies... I don't remember if someone said something about it...

[black_rose]

*laughs at the laugh of Haioth*
 
 I knew you will laugh at the mention of DR  

[BloodDaemon]

Originally posted by Black_Rose:
  and what's the Book of Lies... I don't remember if someone said something about it...

Book of lies is a writing by Aleister Crowley

[Qliphoth]

Yeah.. Wine of Aluquah=menstrual blood. Eye of Shiva=asshole(i dont remember where i've read this). What other interesting things does Therion sing about? Maybe there are some OTHER meanings?  

What's wrong with you people???              
 
 3. When you say "drink the wine of Aluqah" you can not do it litterally, as Aluqah is not a physical diety. If someone prefers to drink real menstrual blood symbolizing the wine of Aluqah is a matter of (very) personal preferance, but for the majority of magicians red wine is equally strong to symbolize it. Either of it is just a tool symbolizing the energy in question. None is "better" than the other objectively. Then of course there might be a third personal preference in between where a small drop of menstrual blood dropped into wine to make it (in his/her opinion) symbolically stronger. Again, this is the personal preference making it stronger symbolically, from an objective point of view it makes no difference at all.
 The official DR policy (as some people were speculating about what we do in DR) would be to use pure red wine, but if any individual would prefer anything else (provided it is not during an official meeting), it is not any of the business of the order.
 
 4. People that say Therion is promoting DR have a pretty weird way of looking upon life. Should Chris not be able to have lyrics that inspire him just because some weirdo think it's "promotion of DR" because the topics are related???  AND none of those topics are exclusive of DR btw.
 So please drop this bullshit about "I don't support DR", because nobody even asked you to have an opinion just because you listen to Therion and Chris is a DR member. If you're instested in magic and esoteric orders, THEN have an opinion, if you're just into Therion's music, then it's pointless to have an opinion about something that doesn't interest you and that you likely have very  small or no knowledge about. By the way some of you guys write,  it sems like one MUST have an opinion weither DR is good or not just because one listens to Therion. People that listen to Ozzy Osbourne doesn't necessarily have an opinion about Aleister Crowley just because Ozzy made a (on the other hand negative) song about him.

[Ahriman]

2. Wine of Aluqah is telling a tale of the Hashassins, it is not in any way describing any DR ritual. Do you think "Three ships of Berik" is about how DR is gonna invade Italy and create a Kingdom for Goths there as well?                
 
 3. When you say "drink the wine of Aluqah" you can not do it litterally, as Aluqah is not a physical diety. If someone prefers to drink real menstrual blood symbolizing the wine of Aluqah is a matter of (very) personal preferance, but for the majority of magicians red wine is equally strong to symbolize it. Either of it is just a tool symbolizing the energy in question. None is "better" than the other objectively. Then of course there might be a third personal preference in between where a small drop of menstrual blood dropped into wine to make it (in his/her opinion) symbolically stronger. Again, this is the personal preference making it stronger symbolically, from an objective point of view it makes no difference at all.
 The official DR policy (as some people were speculating about what we do in DR) would be to use pure red wine, but if any individual would prefer anything else (provided it is not during an official meeting), it is not any of the business of the order.

My comments on the Wine Of Aluqah are derived from magical grimoire from 1829.It does not reflect DR opinion  and I didnt say anywhere that it does.It is my opinion and my experience because I used Wine Of Aluqah in the sense I wrote as chalice filled with menstrual blood for ingesting in sexual magic or to create incense for materializing evil gods.

[angel_karim]

Originally posted by Haioth Hakodesh:
 [qb] *laughs at the mention of DR*
 
 If I remember correctly, the Aluqa (note here the lack of "h") was some kind of vampire/succubus from Arabian (quite possibly the Q'ran) myths...
 
 I say you Are Idiot & a Very Big One too   :ar15:  
 First ( Q'ran )is not a myth
 second iam an arabian and i love therion so about wine of aluqah Iblis & Shaitan is satan In Muslims &
  El-a'awer. talbis iblis.
 Gulshan-i raz. zat-i shaitan ............... is not arabic I think its Iran Language

[Ahriman]

If you dont know Angel many stories from talmud/bible/quran are stolen from Sumerian and Egyptian religion.Some are totally made up and have no basics in reality as scientists have proven  

[Ahriman]

Absurdities in the Quran http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm

[Ocarina]

Originally posted by Ahriman:
  Absurdities in the Quran  http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm

That was an interesting read...
 
 I've always been intrigued by the Quran, and thought about reading it.  I still will someday, but that article makes it seem... less intellectually stimulating as I first thought.
 
 We shall see...
 
 
 Of course, I mean no offense to any believers.

[al-Dajjal]

Originally posted by Angel:
 

Originally posted by Haioth Hakodesh:
 [qb] *laughs at the mention of DR*
 
 If I remember correctly, the Aluqa (note here the lack of "h") was some kind of vampire/succubus from Arabian (quite possibly the Q'ran) myths...
 
 I say you Are Idiot & a Very Big One too    :ar15:  
 First ( Q'ran )is not a myth
 second iam an arabian and i love therion so about wine of aluqah Iblis & Shaitan is satan In Muslims &
  El-a'awer. talbis iblis.
 Gulshan-i raz. zat-i shaitan ............... is not arabic I think its Iran Language [/b]

The Qur'an, despite being an intriguing set of (sometimes violent, cruel and unjust) tales, is still on the same level as most religious books: a collection of tales that are to be indoctrinated as the absolute truth and a justification for any act done in the name of the religion it represents. Calling disbelievers idiots is not going to help your cause any further. We'd need some concrete evidence for that.
 
 Dragon Rouge is another matter altogether. They're more of the stereotypical pseudo-occultist group we all know and love. Many occultists also suspect that a large part of the member base consists of Therion fans. The lodge master of the disbanded Thagirion Lodge in Germany has publicly admitted to the truth of this supposition in an interview to occult magazine Der Golem.
 
 The above statements have been written with, of course, full respect to both beliefs' subscribers. Just voicing my opinion here.

[AlexiwildchildlaihO]

Shaitan is SAtan iin english word..

[BloodDaemon]

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
 
 Dragon Rouge is another matter altogether. They're more of the stereotypical pseudo-occultist group we all know and love. Many occultists also suspect that a large part of the member base consists of Therion fans. The lodge master of the disbanded Thagirion Lodge in Germany has publicly admitted to the truth of this supposition in an interview to occult magazine Der Golem.
 
 The above statements have been written with, of course, full respect to both beliefs' subscribers. Just voicing my opinion here. [/QB]

Sorry but I find it hard to see how calling something false (pseudo) is showing full respect. Exactly why is it that you consider DR to be a false stereotypical occultist group? What would you consider to be "real" occultism? Is it OTO, Masons, Rose croix, Golden Dawn? Most of the members of DR I know are all experienced occultists, many of which have been in other organizations or studying the occult for several years. There are in DR Therion fans indeed, but what is so wrong about that? Is it that the fact you enjoy a certain type of music immediatly turns you into an idiotic groupie? I hardly think so. Many of the people that listen to Therion are occultists or study the subject, so could it not be that those people in DR that listen to Therion were occultists unrelatedly to Therion? You make it sound as if listening to Therion is an incompatibility to being an occultist, think again. If you were to dismiss the intellectual/mystical/magickal capacities of an individual based solely on the basis of which type of music he/she listens to, then you would probably have to dismiss a majority of the people that are presently in the occult sphere. If what you are trying to say is that DR is worthless because it is made up of people that do not know the occult, I challenge you to contact several members, talk to them about their knowledge and prowess and then repeat that statement.
 
 As for the Koran's nature I agree with you that it is mythical, but yet again most of what is mythical is, if studied, quite valuable to understand the human psique and the evolution of our race. Of course that when looked upon literally many of the "stories" found either in the Koran or the Bible or any other book of the sort may appear as plain indoctrination, but when looked upon in between lines they are considerably valuable. Indeed calling a non-believer an idiot is wrong, as it dismisses any posibility of a logical academic discussion and shows poor basis of argumentation when appealing to ad-hominem arguments.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by ich weiss nicht:
  Shaitan is SAtan iin english word..

Shaitan is derived from Hebrew Sathan and Sathan is derived from Aramaic Satana.So Satan is derived from Aramaic.When entity Satan was called Satana in Aramaic times,there was no islam and no name Shaitan and thats the whole truth.

[al-Dajjal]

Originally posted by BloodDaemon:
   

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
 
 Dragon Rouge is another matter altogether. They're more of the stereotypical pseudo-occultist group we all know and love. Many occultists also suspect that a large part of the member base consists of Therion fans. The lodge master of the disbanded Thagirion Lodge in Germany has publicly admitted to the truth of this supposition in an interview to occult magazine Der Golem.
 
 The above statements have been written with, of course, full respect to both beliefs' subscribers. Just voicing my opinion here. [/b]

Sorry but I find it hard to see how calling something false (pseudo) is showing full respect. Exactly why is it that you consider DR to be a false stereotypical occultist group? What would you consider to be "real" occultism? Is it OTO, Masons, Rose croix, Golden Dawn? Most of the members of DR I know are all experienced occultists, many of which have been in other organizations or studying the occult for several years. There are in DR Therion fans indeed, but what is so wrong about that? Is it that the fact you enjoy a certain type of music immediatly turns you into an idiotic groupie? I hardly think so. Many of the people that listen to Therion are occultists or study the subject, so could it not be that those people in DR that listen to Therion were occultists unrelatedly to Therion? You make it sound as if listening to Therion is an incompatibility to being an occultist, think again. If you were to dismiss the intellectual/mystical/magickal capacities of an individual based solely on the basis of which type of music he/she listens to, then you would probably have to dismiss a majority of the people that are presently in the occult sphere. If what you are trying to say is that DR is worthless because it is made up of people that do not know the occult, I challenge you to contact several members, talk to them about their knowledge and prowess and then repeat that statement.
 
 As for the Koran's nature I agree with you that it is mythical, but yet again most of what is mythical is, if studied, quite valuable to understand the human psique and the evolution of our race. Of course that when looked upon literally many of the "stories" found either in the Koran or the Bible or any other book of the sort may appear as plain indoctrination, but when looked upon in between lines they are considerably valuable. Indeed calling a non-believer an idiot is wrong, as it dismisses any posibility of a logical academic discussion and shows poor basis of argumentation when appealing to ad-hominem arguments. [/QB]

I don't think we'll ever see real occultism anywhere, because there is simply no tangible proof of its existence. That is why I brand every occultist cult a pseudo-occultist cult.
 
 I did not mean to be demeaning towards Therion fans. I am one myself. Yet the fact that DR mainly consists of Therion fans is a good indicator of its credibility, not because of its membership's intelligence, but because of the nature of its membership. They most likely blindly joined DR because Christoffer Johansson is one of its members and they hoped to have a meeting with him.
 
 What prowess? I am convinced (until further evidence is laid on the table) that anyone who says he possesses occult powers or knowledge is either deluded and ripe for the asylum or trying to mystify and aggrandize his persona.
 
 Besides that, I do think most occultist stuff is an amusing read, but nothing more. It simply doesn't hold water.
 
 I appreciate your agreement on my stance towards the Qu'ran.

[Franz]

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
  I don't think we'll ever see real occultism anywhere, because there is simply no tangible proof of its existence. That is why I brand every occultist cult a pseudo-occultist cult.

If there never is true occultism, there isn't really any reason to call them pseudo-occultist. Think about it.
 
   

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
 I did not mean to be demeaning towards Therion fans. I am one myself. Yet the fact that DR mainly consists of Therion fans is a good indicator of its credibility, not because of its membership's intelligence, but because of the nature of its membership. They most likely blindly joined DR because Christoffer Johansson is one of its members and they hoped to have a meeting with him.

Ok might there be a possibility that peeps got interested and now reside in the lower levels of the DR? Does that change the fact that there are true (as far as possible) and studied occultists inthere somewhere? Anyway, getting into TS has a much higher likelyness of meeting the band than DR does.
 
 The man's name is Christofer Johnsson.
 
   

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
 Besides that, I do think most occultist stuff is an amusing read, but nothing more. It simply doesn't hold water.

+1

[BloodDaemon]

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
   

Originally posted by BloodDaemon:
   

Originally posted by al-Dajjal:
 
 Dragon Rouge is another matter altogether. They're more of the stereotypical pseudo-occultist group we all know and love. Many occultists also suspect that a large part of the member base consists of Therion fans. The lodge master of the disbanded Thagirion Lodge in Germany has publicly admitted to the truth of this supposition in an interview to occult magazine Der Golem.
 
 The above statements have been written with, of course, full respect to both beliefs' subscribers. Just voicing my opinion here. [/b]

Sorry but I find it hard to see how calling something false (pseudo) is showing full respect. Exactly why is it that you consider DR to be a false stereotypical occultist group? What would you consider to be "real" occultism? Is it OTO, Masons, Rose croix, Golden Dawn? Most of the members of DR I know are all experienced occultists, many of which have been in other organizations or studying the occult for several years. There are in DR Therion fans indeed, but what is so wrong about that? Is it that the fact you enjoy a certain type of music immediatly turns you into an idiotic groupie? I hardly think so. Many of the people that listen to Therion are occultists or study the subject, so could it not be that those people in DR that listen to Therion were occultists unrelatedly to Therion? You make it sound as if listening to Therion is an incompatibility to being an occultist, think again. If you were to dismiss the intellectual/mystical/magickal capacities of an individual based solely on the basis of which type of music he/she listens to, then you would probably have to dismiss a majority of the people that are presently in the occult sphere. If what you are trying to say is that DR is worthless because it is made up of people that do not know the occult, I challenge you to contact several members, talk to them about their knowledge and prowess and then repeat that statement.
 
 As for the Koran's nature I agree with you that it is mythical, but yet again most of what is mythical is, if studied, quite valuable to understand the human psique and the evolution of our race. Of course that when looked upon literally many of the "stories" found either in the Koran or the Bible or any other book of the sort may appear as plain indoctrination, but when looked upon in between lines they are considerably valuable. Indeed calling a non-believer an idiot is wrong, as it dismisses any posibility of a logical academic discussion and shows poor basis of argumentation when appealing to ad-hominem arguments. [/b]

I don't think we'll ever see real occultism anywhere, because there is simply no tangible proof of its existence. That is why I brand every occultist cult a pseudo-occultist cult.
 
 I did not mean to be demeaning towards Therion fans. I am one myself. Yet the fact that DR mainly consists of Therion fans is a good indicator of its credibility, not because of its membership's intelligence, but because of the nature of its membership. They most likely blindly joined DR because Christoffer Johansson is one of its members and they hoped to have a meeting with him.
 
 What prowess? I am convinced (until further evidence is laid on the table) that anyone who says he possesses occult powers or knowledge is either deluded and ripe for the asylum or trying to mystify and aggrandize his persona.
 
 Besides that, I do think most occultist stuff is an amusing read, but nothing more. It simply doesn't hold water.
 
 I appreciate your agreement on my stance towards the Qu'ran. [/QB]

As for your reason to call all occultism pseudo-occultism  I hardly disagree that anything which is not tangible is therefore liable to be called false...talk about the disgraces that positivism can make!!
 
 Exactly to what credibility do you refer when you say that DR lacks it because of the "fact" that it has many members which enjoy therion. What is your "credible" occult lodge? Your whole argument is logically quite weak since it starts from a premise which is an assumption (you assume that people which know therion join DR "blindly" to meet C.Johnsson). It certainly could be the case were you talking about Backstreet Boys fans and some boy scout organization in which one of the band members held a position, but since neither is true in this case, you have both sentient and cultured people who happen to like a band and an organization which is quite serious in its admission procedures. As Franz says, if there were people who wanted to meet C.Johnson, they have a decent possibility in Therion Society.
 
 As for your disdain to the "prowess" I say again, meet members, hear their stories and know their persona if you want evidence (although once again I am sad that you show such devotion to positivistic dogma). Anyway, why do you find it so repulsing that a person believes in his/her empowerement? Would you rather have them be weak minded sheep ready to be trampled by external ethereal entities? Madness is many times greatness so asylums sadly enough serve as prisons (in several occasions) to magnificent minds which by reason of their distance from normality are branded as psycotic.

[angel_karim]

Originally posted by Ahriman:
 [QB] Absurdities in the Quran  http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm
 I Have Read This Html & I laugh my Ass out all this shit about the holy quran are Lies &
 "i can Prove It If Any one Is Interested Can talk to me on MSN Messenger
 angel_karim_2005@hotmail.com "
 
 & one thing Islam is not about war & kill in actual fact the word islam means Peace in English words
 & islam do not calls for war to be made on Jews and Christians The writer does'nt know anything about islam I think he hates muslims so he wrote that
 
 thank u

[Ahriman]

Well that is written in the quran so if those are lies then whole quran is big lie.

[angel_karim]

Originally posted by Ahriman:
 [QB] Well that is written in the quran so if those are lies then whole quran is big lie.
 
 Not What Written In The Quan Is Lies But What Written In The Artical ( http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm )Is Lies & Quran Is Not A lie

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Angel:
 

Originally posted by Ahriman:
 [QB] Well that is written in the quran so if those are lies then whole quran is big lie.
 
 Not What Written In The Quan Is Lies But What Written In The Artical (   http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm   )Is Lies & Quran Is Not A lie [/b]

Actually they quoted quran so they are right-they didnt make up quotes on that site.

[Crono]

All religion is corrupt!
 
 Make your own religion! Make your own reality!
 
 It is your choice!!
 
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Your Local Crazy Guy

[iad baltoh]

Originally posted by Ahriman:
  Well that is written in the quran so if those are lies then whole quran is big lie.

dear ahriman(mazdean devil)if i were u i would not speak like this,cause you are talking about a subject that you really don't know anything except the text on that website(and i am sorry that from the turkish version of qu'ran i checked many of the examples and the problem is wrong translation+some numbers does not excist in the bible (Bukhari 4:830-832; 5:208-211; 6:387-390)or lack of the whole sentence-gave only a part of it.for example i say i don't like to listen to pop music)but u take as an example only the part of (listen to pop music-where is the beginning of the sentence??,where is the i don't like part-so if u will not read the whole part-we can misunderstand).i belive in god,and try to read and learn the bibles of god christan bible..and others-satanic bible..)and other doctrines that i don't want +i can't give name    the problem is if you can't read the bible in it's own language you can't understand perfectly,cause like in english-arabic a word-different meaning in different sentence and similars can be used in (sometimes a word can have 10 different meanings accourding to the sentences it is used in+pronancation.because of this reason there are universities only for to read+learn the real meanings of these sentences in the bibles.so i recommend u to read the original+the books telling the real  meanings written by the professionals of the subject.  :pop:

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by iad baltoh:
 dear ahriman(mazdean devil)if i were u i would not speak like this,cause you are talking about a subject that you really don't know anything except the text on that website(and i am sorry that from the turkish version of qu'ran i checked many of the examples and the problem is wrong translation+some numbers does not excist in the bible (Bukhari 4:830-832; 5:208-211; 6:387-390)or lack of the whole sentence-gave only a part of it.for example i say i don't like to listen to pop music)but u take as an example only the part of (listen to pop music-where is the beginning of the sentence??,where is the i don't like part-so if u will not read the whole part-we can misunderstand).i belive in god,and try to read and learn the bibles of god christan bible..and others-satanic bible..)and other doctrines that i don't want +i can't give name        the problem is if you can't read the bible in it's own language you can't understand perfectly,cause like in english-arabic a word-different meaning in different sentence and similars can be used in (sometimes a word can have 10 different meanings accourding to the sentences it is used in+pronancation.because of this reason there are universities only for to read+learn the real meanings of these sentences in the bibles.so i recommend u to read the original+the books telling the real  meanings written by the professionals of the subject.    :pop:   [/QB]

Well thats true there may be some misinterpretations.Certain facts are however undisputable-like in the bible,everyone who thinks differently is killed (literally).If you do not follow rules of the quran you can get killed in Arabic countries.In my opinion that is no religion for 21st century.Christians were the same,killing all that didnt suit their world views,but as the Europe transformed into industrial society church lost its worldly power.This shows that all monotheistic religions are evil because they sistematically limit human right to live and believe what he wants and to be free.

[iad baltoh]

i agree with u mostly,the rules of the arabic countries+and the way of penalty is not good,like the christians did for centuries,but a
 Renaissance in this religion also will be soon.for me a religion must be(not believing is also a religion  :p  )but must not be used as a part of politics or as a government style.it is between yourself-and god or what u believe to-or not..
 people will always search and try to find answer why we are here,why me? understanding the life...and what will be after death...etc.christianity-islam..are strong +have millions of believers because they have some answers for now-and future.
 
 you said:''This shows that all monotheistic religions are evil because they sistematically limit human right to live and believe what he wants and to be free''
 ***i agree but as you can know religion is only a part of the game to achive what they want easily/that the powers on earth use to rule the earth.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by iad baltoh:
  i agree with u mostly,the rules of the arabic countries+and the way of penalty is not good,like the christians did for centuries,but a
 Renaissance in this religion also will be soon.for me a religion must be(not believing is also a religion   :p   )but must not be used as a part of politics or as a government style.it is between yourself-and god or what u believe to-or not..
 people will always search and try to find answer why we are here,why me? understanding the life...and what will be after death...etc.christianity-islam..are strong +have millions of believers because they have some answers for now-and future.
 
 you said:''This shows that all monotheistic religions are evil because they sistematically limit human right to live and believe what he wants and to be free''
 ***i agree but as you can know religion is only a part of the game to achive what they want easily/that the powers on earth use to rule the earth.

I can agree with most things you said.Everyone should have the right to be what he wants in matters of religion.And religions should not be the judge in ordinary life.Religion is something personal and should be left to the each individual to choose.Whether it will be christianity,hindu,pagan,buddhism,islam,gnostic,satanism or whatever any person chooses.

[angel_karim]

Originally posted by iad baltoh:
 

Originally posted by Ahriman:
 [qb] Well that is written in the quran so if those are lies then whole quran is big lie. [/b]

dear ahriman(mazdean devil)if i were u i would not speak like this,cause you are talking about a subject that you really don't know anything except the text on that website(and i am sorry that from the turkish version of qu'ran i checked many of the examples and the problem is wrong translation+some numbers does not excist in the bible (Bukhari 4:830-832; 5:208-211; 6:387-390)or lack of the whole sentence-gave only a part of it.for example i say i don't like to listen to pop music)but u take as an example only the part of (listen to pop music-where is the beginning of the sentence??,where is the i don't like part-so if u will not read the whole part-we can misunderstand).i belive in god,and try to read and learn the bibles of god christan bible..and others-satanic bible..)and other doctrines that i don't want +i can't give name     the problem is if you can't read the bible in it's own language you can't understand perfectly,cause like in english-arabic a word-different meaning in different sentence and similars can be used in (sometimes a word can have 10 different meanings accourding to the sentences it is used in+pronancation.because of this reason there are universities only for to read+learn the real meanings of these sentences in the bibles.so i recommend u to read the original+the books telling the real  meanings written by the professionals of the subject.   :pop:  
 
 
 Thank You iad baltoh You Have Said What I couldn't

[Sadric]

For all I can recall, humans massacre their own species and abuse nature from the dawn of civilization, regardless of their religion, race, sex etc.   :angry:  
 Blaming on someone or something else than human greed and hypocricy encourages the continuation of destruction ad infinitum.  :ar15:  
 Living in the middle of West and East (and vice versa), I have realized that the only thing that hasn't yet inspired war is Art, even though pop and the rest of this crap makes me beserk...  :cussing: